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New. [Feb. 28th, 2005|06:53 pm]
Jews, Christians, and Muslims

peopleofthebook

[_hiddensecret]
[Current Mood |contentcontent]

Hi, I hope this community is still active because I just found it recently. I think i looked up the interest 'quran' and stumbled upon it. For awhile I've been looking for a monotheist community that welcomes all believers who worship God alone. I follow the religion of Abraham which is monotheism but I read the Quran and call myself a 'submitter.' I think it's very important to worship God alone and I think that this is the best community I've found so far that does not create any bias or division in religions. I do not count myself among the majority of muslims for specific reasons, as there are unfortunately many divisions in this religion and God says in the Quran that we should not divide ourselves into sects. Some call themselves Sunni and some call themselves Shia and there are others that I don't even know about but I only call myself a submitter. I do not follow Hadith as it was fabricated by man and I believe it to be false. The Quran also confirms the previous scriptures such as the Psalms, and Torah (old testament), and the Quran is God's final message to humanity. I think one of the most important things in the Quran that I feel is very relevant to this community is the following verse:

"Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, the converts; anyone who
(1)believes in God and
(2)believes in the Hereafter, and
(3)leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord;
they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
[5:69, 2:62]

These are the minimum requirements for salvation although there are many additional ways for us to work righteousness and develop our souls to make it in the hereafter, God willing.

To know more about 'submission', please visit the following website:

http://www.submission.org

Peace be upon you :)
LinkReply

Comments:
From: ihsan4life
2005-02-28 10:18 pm (UTC)

Salaamu allaikum

salaamu allaikum,

The hadiths weren't fabricated. A science of isnad(chain of narrations) were developed by the first, second, and third generation of muslims so the prophetic tradition(sunnah) could live on. These early generation of muslims sacrificed their lives treking back and forth to preserve the writing and sayings of the most beloved creation known to mankind, Muhammad(may the peace and blessings be upon him).

This science of isnad not only entailed memorizing and writing down authentic hadiths, it was also used to keep track of false and fabricated ones as well. One cannot say all hadiths are fabricated....that information is false AND fabricated in itself. This type of issue only causes fitna.

Oh by the way, i've been to submission.org. I tried to have a meaningful conversation with the webmaster of the website but he seemed very rude and didn't want to say what the people's credentials were that wrote the articles on the website. Don't you think thats shady?

The articles in the website had no basis in its stance with issues on hijab, hadith, and following the sunnah of the Prophet(SAW). It used hazy logic to make their opinions justified.

Sunni and shia are divided b/c of political reasons after the death of Muhammad(SAW). A few people wanted Ali(ra) as the leader of the muslims, the majority of muslims gave the authority to Abu Bakr(ra). Thats why the majority of the muslims today are followers of the sunnah or sunni. I know many shia muslims and that doesn't stop me from being friends with them....we both believe in the shahada "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is the messanger" and thats what really counts.

The islam that follows the traditions of the prophet(SAW) is the mainstream islam. Following only the Quran is like having only one leg to stand on and makes you crippled and you won't be able to go anywhere....following the prophetic hadith gives you the other leg to stand on and stabilize yourself and can take you further than you have ever imagined spiritually and mentally.

If anyone is interested and want to know more about islam and have questions.... Here is a credible website with people who have their credentials listed on it
http://www.sunnipath.com/

Muslims who follow the sunnah are also submitters.

Salaamu allaikum(Peace be unto you) as well.

P.S don't reply with articles from that submmision website , i've read some of them already and don't believe in it. And i'm not going to spend my time debating each and every issue, its not very productive for you and me. It will only cause fitna.




(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-01 02:25 pm (UTC)
"Following only the Quran is like having only one leg to stand on and makes you crippled and you won't be able to go anywhere"

So follow your Hadith then. Why not dismiss the Quran completely while you are at it, which is what you are doing when you set up any other source for guidance beside it. What you have just said is contridactory to what it says in the Quran, if you decide to follow anything other than Quran, you are following satan. The final testament is a fully detailed scripture, complete with proof from our Lord, whereas Hadith was no proof of authorization except for conjecture. I have read Hadith and it sickened me to think that people can actually take it seriously. I know the truth when I read it and I can tell when I am being lied to. It is sad to think that there are people who still blindly follow these lies and think that they are on the right path. Do you think that I am misguided for devoting my prayers to God alone instead of Mohammed? Will I not be saved by God, my creator, for not mentioning His servent in my prayers? Should I mention all of the prophets then, since they all delivered the same message, which is to worship God alone? God mentions in the Quran that we have no right to distinguish among His messengers, they should be equal to us, and only God has the right to distinguish among them.

Oh by the way, i've been to submission.org. I tried to have a meaningful conversation with the webmaster of the website but he seemed very rude and didn't want to say what the people's credentials were that wrote the articles on the website. Don't you think thats shady?

Credentials? Since when does someone need credentials to write an article for a website, that seems to have been well researched and makes sense? As for his manners, do you think you're the first angry muslim to dig something up from submission to argue with? It seems an irrelevant question to ask in the first place, I mean, what difference does it make, you either reject submission or you accept it-there is no need to have petty arguments over 'credentials.'

I have heard all of this before, it is not news to me, I still feel that Quran is enough for me to attain salvation from God, insha'allah, as long as I die a believer and do not fall into idolatry as you clearly unknowingly have. Peace.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-01 10:01 pm (UTC)
hey that hurt my feelings.......anyway the Quran is complete and is the
ultimate guidance, no doubt about that. I was just giving an analogy and it wasn't meant to diss the Quran.
My meaning was....The Quran cannot be followed alone...verses of the revelation were revealed at a specific time and place for a special reason and knowing the context of each situation is important....The Quran doesn't explain those specific details of the event and thats where the hadiths come in....Muhammad(may the peace and blessings be upon him) is the best commentator of the Quran....and like i said before, the hadiths were rigorously studied and maintained by early companions, along with the 2nd and 3rd generation of muslims. The hadiths is a commentary to any questions that arise in the Quran and therefore compliments it.

And let me repeat again...QURAN CANNOT BE FOLLOWED ALONE...SOME REVELATIONS need explanations b/c they came for a specific event, time, or place. THOSE EXPLANATIONS ARE GIVEN BY TAFSIRS AND HADITHS COMMENTATORS....thats why Islam is so special, we have the ability to do that.

You need credentials because how would u teach a subject if you don't
know anything about it. How do you teach Medicine if you're not a doctor....Anybody could look up the web and write an
article about anything and have an opinion on it....and where did my previous post seem that i was an "angry muslim"....i was actually just giving my stance on the issue, your rebuttal was actually very harsh and angry in tone...saying that i fell into idolatry is a clear example of that anger.

Is your definition of idolatry worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? If so...then where in my statements show that i'm worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? Do i ask him for forgivenes or do I bow my head in prostration toward his grave? I don't think so......Do you have a general idea that muslims worship Muhammad(PBUH)?

i only hold him in high status because thats where he belongs.....Study his life and you'll see how much hardship he went through to convey the message, all the trials and tribulations are seen in his life... then you would understand why people put him in the highest of status.

So stop with the name calling, only Allah can judge me at the end. Only Allah knows whats in my heart and only he can tell me if i was worshipping Muhammad(PBUH).

Peace/Salaam
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 09:00 am (UTC)
And finally, I am going to turn to any random page in Hadith, which I do happen to own a copy of, to note the differences between a book that is pure and void of any nonsense, and one that is based of falsehood and conjecture.

Oh, an excellent example:

CHAPTER. A menstruating woman should not fast. (!?!??!!?!!)

301. Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: Allahs Apostle came out to offer the prayer of Id-al-Asha or Al-Fitr, and passed by the women (in the mosque) and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen you forming the majority of the dwellers of Hell." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "you curse too much and are ungrateful to your husband. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allahs Apostle! What is deficient in our inteligence and religion?" He said, Is not the witness of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your religion."
Not only is that a ridiculously backwards, but it also sounds to me like this book MOCKS the prophet rather than support him, I do not believe that one of God's prophets would preach this kind of blasphemous falsehood. This is so wrong in so many ways I don't even know WHERE to begin.
First of all, God is very very clear and strict about the equality of men and women submitters; there is a whole surah in favour of the rights of women for goodness sake! What a joke that is to say that women cannot even FAST while they are menstruating? and cannot do their contact prayers?? WHERE in the Quran does it say ANY of this? I would think this is a pretty big commandment to just overlook, especially in surah 4- Al-Nesa (Women) which is very detailed, and very straightforward in favour of women's rights and equality.
I rest my case.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-12 12:58 pm (UTC)
i'm glad your resting your case b/c its going to confuse the uneducated confused muslims out there. This hadith your brought forth is contextualized for a specific purpose and since an ordinary laymen like you doesn't understand it....you will take it out of context and use it for your own purpose. You totally missed my point about hadiths preservation in the beginning and you bring this one particular hadith to further your agenda about falsified hadiths.
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From: node
2005-08-23 02:38 am (UTC)
A menstruating woman should not fast. (!?!??!!?!!)

Menstruation is considered impure, and unclean: 3:222.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand)
From: ihsan4life
2005-03-12 12:35 pm (UTC)
I don't need to rebuttal anymore b/c its just going into circles, i already gave my stance on the sunnah and hadith. Your ideas are going to confuse people rather than help them submit to God and you are not sincere in what you say. Here is where your sect of Islam originated from if you don't know already. Your so called originator/messanger was Rasad Khalifa...read more below.

Check middle area of link or just read below.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/anti_muslim_main.htm

The Int'l Community of Submitters
The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah.
Much of Rashad Khalifa's misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19.

He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ...is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears." By rejecting a single verse of the Qur'an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,

... Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom ... (2:85)

It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur'an:

They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)

The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

* Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
* Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
* Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
* Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,

(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 09:32 pm (UTC)
Yes, I do believe that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger, not a prophet, but the messenger of the covenant who was prophesised in the previous scriptures as well as the Quran.
His proof of messengership was indeed, revealing the miracle of 19.
As for his knowledge regarding the end of the world:

"God is the Knower of the future;
He does not permit anyone to unveil such knowledge.
Only through the messengers that He chooses
does He reveal future and past events.
"

It was among Dr. Khalifa's duties as the messenger of the covenant to reveal this information at the appropriate time.
Verse 15 of surah 20 also informs us that the end of the world will be revealed by God before the end of the world, and Surah 15, Verse 87, gives the time for that event:
"We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran."
15:87

The seven pairs are the 14 Quranic initals. The total gematrical value of these profound pillas of the Qurans miracle pinpoints the year of the end of the world. It is noteworthy that Verse 85 of Sura 15 states: "The end of the world will surely come to pass." The next verse, 15:86, tells us that God is the Creator of this worlld, and, of course, He knows when it will end. The following verse, 15:87, tells us when the world will end.
The gematrical values of "The Seven Pairs" of Quranic Initials total 1709.
According to 15:87, the world will survive for 1709 lunar years from the time this prophecy is stated in the Quran. This means that the world will end in the year 1710 AH. This number is a multiple of 19; 1710=19x90.

This is part of the knowledge that God inspired Rashad Khalifa with in regards to the end of the world, in his words. I would continue on but somehow I think you may still choose to disregard it and throw back some other hackneyed reply that will once again contradict itself and get you nowhere. Remember this; it is worse in God's eyes to reject one of His messengers without having knowledge than to accept the message when there is clearly nothing blasphemous therein. Satan will misguide you into digging for something against this, and he may succeed, if you are a weak soul.
However, the truth will always win over falsehood, and God willing we will see who was on the right path.

And lastly, in regards to the religious practices, you claim that we submitters have been practising them wrong, but it is actually the other way around.

* Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
muhammed's name is praised in the azan beside God
Alas, the following verse rings true:
"When God ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do disbelieve in the hereafter shrink with aversion, but when others are mentioned with Him, they become satisfied."

* Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
i don't even know where you get that we are not giving proper zakat, who are you to say this?
* Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
also, tell me how fasting is any different, and while you are at it i again challenge you to justify the hadith claiming that women cannot fast during menstruation.
* Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam
the days of pilgrimage are clearly stated in the quran, and so we read and obey exactly what is in there-surely you are misguided if you follow otherwise.
so..you still have not proven anything to me, and it seems the only unintelligent muslim that is confused would be you, my friend.
oh, wait, what's this? i see you haven't mentioned the shahadah in this list...could it be because it is in fact correct, and in the name of God alone, whereas, traditional muslims mention mohammeds name beside Him? perhaps we are wrong with this also... hmmm i think NOT.

i challenge you, if you call yourself a true muslim, to say the shahada: "Ash-hadu Allaa Elaaha Ellaa Allah" by itself, without mentioning the name of Muhammed. Surely you should have no problem doing so, if you are truthful.

Peace out.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 10:07 pm (UTC)
If you wish to continue any sort of intelligable argument with me, I only ask that you actually read the QURAN, that's right QURAN ALONE, and then perhaps we can have an actual discussion. Until then, I bid you adieu.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-14 02:27 am (UTC)
intelligable arguements? You're asking me to read the Quran?...look at yourself...You bring everything out of context. you are wasting your time argueing this issue with every muslim you meet online or in real life. Reflect and look at your life. Think about what you are doing. You are in a sect that was established after several years. Understand your situation otherwise you're going to regret it someday.
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[User Picture]From: webb21
2005-09-01 04:02 am (UTC)
Ha, hmm, I almost got involved with the submitters sect myself in my early pre-conversion days.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-09-01 11:35 pm (UTC)
well actually the point is that it isn't a sect, but anyway, may i ask what made you change your mind?
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From: (Anonymous)
2006-02-15 02:24 am (UTC)

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
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From: (Anonymous)
2012-03-26 10:48 pm (UTC)
Well done! I learned some interesting things for me)
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2012-06-05 11:55 pm (UTC)

Peace

Wow, 7 years later and I have just returned to this thread. I was definitely a passionate 18 year old haha but am happy to say I still follow strict Monotheism as it is laid out in the final testament (Quran). I am glad you were able to gain some new information from this, if you would like to check out some updated sites www.submission.ws as well as masjidtucson.org are both great places to start. Please feel free to e-mail me as well if you wish to discuss anything in particular :) nightingale19@gmail.com

God bless you,
S
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