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New. [Feb. 28th, 2005|06:53 pm]
Jews, Christians, and Muslims

peopleofthebook

[_hiddensecret]
[Current Mood |contentcontent]

Hi, I hope this community is still active because I just found it recently. I think i looked up the interest 'quran' and stumbled upon it. For awhile I've been looking for a monotheist community that welcomes all believers who worship God alone. I follow the religion of Abraham which is monotheism but I read the Quran and call myself a 'submitter.' I think it's very important to worship God alone and I think that this is the best community I've found so far that does not create any bias or division in religions. I do not count myself among the majority of muslims for specific reasons, as there are unfortunately many divisions in this religion and God says in the Quran that we should not divide ourselves into sects. Some call themselves Sunni and some call themselves Shia and there are others that I don't even know about but I only call myself a submitter. I do not follow Hadith as it was fabricated by man and I believe it to be false. The Quran also confirms the previous scriptures such as the Psalms, and Torah (old testament), and the Quran is God's final message to humanity. I think one of the most important things in the Quran that I feel is very relevant to this community is the following verse:

"Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, the converts; anyone who
(1)believes in God and
(2)believes in the Hereafter, and
(3)leads a righteous life,
will receive their recompense from their Lord;
they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
[5:69, 2:62]

These are the minimum requirements for salvation although there are many additional ways for us to work righteousness and develop our souls to make it in the hereafter, God willing.

To know more about 'submission', please visit the following website:

http://www.submission.org

Peace be upon you :)
LinkReply

Comments:
From: ihsan4life
2005-02-28 10:18 pm (UTC)

Salaamu allaikum

salaamu allaikum,

The hadiths weren't fabricated. A science of isnad(chain of narrations) were developed by the first, second, and third generation of muslims so the prophetic tradition(sunnah) could live on. These early generation of muslims sacrificed their lives treking back and forth to preserve the writing and sayings of the most beloved creation known to mankind, Muhammad(may the peace and blessings be upon him).

This science of isnad not only entailed memorizing and writing down authentic hadiths, it was also used to keep track of false and fabricated ones as well. One cannot say all hadiths are fabricated....that information is false AND fabricated in itself. This type of issue only causes fitna.

Oh by the way, i've been to submission.org. I tried to have a meaningful conversation with the webmaster of the website but he seemed very rude and didn't want to say what the people's credentials were that wrote the articles on the website. Don't you think thats shady?

The articles in the website had no basis in its stance with issues on hijab, hadith, and following the sunnah of the Prophet(SAW). It used hazy logic to make their opinions justified.

Sunni and shia are divided b/c of political reasons after the death of Muhammad(SAW). A few people wanted Ali(ra) as the leader of the muslims, the majority of muslims gave the authority to Abu Bakr(ra). Thats why the majority of the muslims today are followers of the sunnah or sunni. I know many shia muslims and that doesn't stop me from being friends with them....we both believe in the shahada "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is the messanger" and thats what really counts.

The islam that follows the traditions of the prophet(SAW) is the mainstream islam. Following only the Quran is like having only one leg to stand on and makes you crippled and you won't be able to go anywhere....following the prophetic hadith gives you the other leg to stand on and stabilize yourself and can take you further than you have ever imagined spiritually and mentally.

If anyone is interested and want to know more about islam and have questions.... Here is a credible website with people who have their credentials listed on it
http://www.sunnipath.com/

Muslims who follow the sunnah are also submitters.

Salaamu allaikum(Peace be unto you) as well.

P.S don't reply with articles from that submmision website , i've read some of them already and don't believe in it. And i'm not going to spend my time debating each and every issue, its not very productive for you and me. It will only cause fitna.




(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-01 02:25 pm (UTC)
"Following only the Quran is like having only one leg to stand on and makes you crippled and you won't be able to go anywhere"

So follow your Hadith then. Why not dismiss the Quran completely while you are at it, which is what you are doing when you set up any other source for guidance beside it. What you have just said is contridactory to what it says in the Quran, if you decide to follow anything other than Quran, you are following satan. The final testament is a fully detailed scripture, complete with proof from our Lord, whereas Hadith was no proof of authorization except for conjecture. I have read Hadith and it sickened me to think that people can actually take it seriously. I know the truth when I read it and I can tell when I am being lied to. It is sad to think that there are people who still blindly follow these lies and think that they are on the right path. Do you think that I am misguided for devoting my prayers to God alone instead of Mohammed? Will I not be saved by God, my creator, for not mentioning His servent in my prayers? Should I mention all of the prophets then, since they all delivered the same message, which is to worship God alone? God mentions in the Quran that we have no right to distinguish among His messengers, they should be equal to us, and only God has the right to distinguish among them.

Oh by the way, i've been to submission.org. I tried to have a meaningful conversation with the webmaster of the website but he seemed very rude and didn't want to say what the people's credentials were that wrote the articles on the website. Don't you think thats shady?

Credentials? Since when does someone need credentials to write an article for a website, that seems to have been well researched and makes sense? As for his manners, do you think you're the first angry muslim to dig something up from submission to argue with? It seems an irrelevant question to ask in the first place, I mean, what difference does it make, you either reject submission or you accept it-there is no need to have petty arguments over 'credentials.'

I have heard all of this before, it is not news to me, I still feel that Quran is enough for me to attain salvation from God, insha'allah, as long as I die a believer and do not fall into idolatry as you clearly unknowingly have. Peace.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-01 10:01 pm (UTC)
hey that hurt my feelings.......anyway the Quran is complete and is the
ultimate guidance, no doubt about that. I was just giving an analogy and it wasn't meant to diss the Quran.
My meaning was....The Quran cannot be followed alone...verses of the revelation were revealed at a specific time and place for a special reason and knowing the context of each situation is important....The Quran doesn't explain those specific details of the event and thats where the hadiths come in....Muhammad(may the peace and blessings be upon him) is the best commentator of the Quran....and like i said before, the hadiths were rigorously studied and maintained by early companions, along with the 2nd and 3rd generation of muslims. The hadiths is a commentary to any questions that arise in the Quran and therefore compliments it.

And let me repeat again...QURAN CANNOT BE FOLLOWED ALONE...SOME REVELATIONS need explanations b/c they came for a specific event, time, or place. THOSE EXPLANATIONS ARE GIVEN BY TAFSIRS AND HADITHS COMMENTATORS....thats why Islam is so special, we have the ability to do that.

You need credentials because how would u teach a subject if you don't
know anything about it. How do you teach Medicine if you're not a doctor....Anybody could look up the web and write an
article about anything and have an opinion on it....and where did my previous post seem that i was an "angry muslim"....i was actually just giving my stance on the issue, your rebuttal was actually very harsh and angry in tone...saying that i fell into idolatry is a clear example of that anger.

Is your definition of idolatry worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? If so...then where in my statements show that i'm worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? Do i ask him for forgivenes or do I bow my head in prostration toward his grave? I don't think so......Do you have a general idea that muslims worship Muhammad(PBUH)?

i only hold him in high status because thats where he belongs.....Study his life and you'll see how much hardship he went through to convey the message, all the trials and tribulations are seen in his life... then you would understand why people put him in the highest of status.

So stop with the name calling, only Allah can judge me at the end. Only Allah knows whats in my heart and only he can tell me if i was worshipping Muhammad(PBUH).

Peace/Salaam
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: writtenword7
2005-03-03 10:14 pm (UTC)
Alhamdulillah

I agree 110%

many of the misinterpretations of the Qur'an are caused because people reading it do not understand the context of the revelation

hiddentruth, what you are doing is putting your own opinions or rather the opinions of submission.org into the orthodox practice of islam. innovation is something that puts a person outside of the fold of islam, and this is what you have done. to correctly follow the Qur'an, it MUST be accompanied by the Sunnah. The Prophet (saw) was the Messenger of Allah (swt) and following his teachings is the commandment of God in the Qur'an. You can find God telling Muslims to follow the eachings of Muhammad (saw) all over the Qur'an.

I have also been to this site. I am a revert and I was very confused when I first saw the site. I started looking closer and noticed how the artcles were poorly put together and based on faulty logic.

I dont know how long you have been studying this, but my impression would be not very long. You are, it appears, suffering from something that an intelligent sister, Saraji Umm Zaid calls, Insta-Sheik syndrome. Often people who study islam or any religion start of thinking the know everything when in reality they dont know as much as they think.

As you have correctly stated, you should not seek guidance outside of the Qur'an. The Qur'an says you should follow the Hadith and Sunnah. Submission.org tells you not to. Which author do you think knows better?

Surely, Allah knows best.

I hope you understand the point Im making. At the same time, I admire you for trying to be very careful about idolatry. you definitly have good intentions and sould follow the path of Islam insha'Allah.

If you have not yet taken shahada please do so insha'Allah.

As Salaamu Alaikum wa Rahamatullah.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 08:04 am (UTC)
A' salaam' alaikum

I read your intro post in this community about your religious background and I found it very interesting. I think you got it dead on when you said the following:

"i didnt want to be jewish because i didnt believe jesus was a false prophet
i didnt want to be christian because i didnt want to be an idol worshipper and pray to jesus. i wanted to follow the example of jesus and moses and pray to God alone
thats what the first commandment says"


this is definately what has become of the modern christianity and judaism, but i am sure you are also aware, after converting to islam that both these religions were once devoted to God alone and that both Jesus and Moses preached the same message; and even did the contact prayers, they too followed the religion of Abraham, they were by the grace of God, submitters.
I am pointing this out simply to say that as well as well as most Christians and Jews, the majority of those who claim to be Muslims also tend to forsake the word of God and instead, uphold the words of men.
It would be wrong to say that simply because one calls themselves muslim, that they are automatically above all else, that they are no longer human. It is a tragic human flaw, that we should set up idols beside God, which take shape in many forms; and that we may end up following falsehood instead of the truth.
Ma'sha allah, I think that it is a true blessing that you grew up with knowledge of these two different religions and that you searched for the truth, and God did guide you on the right path. God has blessed you with knowledge of the previous scriptures for you to learn therefrom and when you read the Quran it is obvious to you that this is God speaking. Tell me, if you have read Hadith and Sunnah, how you find these books relevant to being Muslim, or a submitter, and why we should need this in addition to God's final testament.

I also just want to mention that it is blasphemous to mention Mohammed's name in your shahada, as this should be devoted to God alone. It is very important to realize this.

P.S:

I dont know how long you have been studying this, but my impression would be not very long.

Sorry, but I have been a submitter my entire life, by the Grace of God. I was 11 when I started practising the religion, as that is the time that the truth was initially revealed to my mother and I started to really see things clearly by the time I had reached my teens. I am now almost 19 and I have no doubts whatsoever in God or the hereafter and that this is the truth from the Almighty.
Also, how long has it been since you were introduced to Islam? Not that I believe it matters, if you are sincere, that is all that matters.

Peace be upon you.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: node
2005-08-23 01:43 am (UTC)
I also just want to mention that it is blasphemous to mention Mohammed's name in your shahada, as this should be devoted to God alone. It is very important to realize this.

What is the difference between a Jew who says "There is only one God — the God of Abraham" and a Muslim who says "There is only one God — the God of Abraham"? Muslims and Jews worship the same God, as they did in the time of Muhammad. The two above testimonies are equal and both true. However, you're not a Muslim if you don't accept that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah. And so, you need to testify to that fact. It's not the same thing as worshipping Muhammad (which I don't do, and I don't know anyone who does).

That's how people know you're a Muslim. Otherwise, well, given that Muslims and Jews worship the same God, what is the difference between you and a Karaite?

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-08-24 09:13 am (UTC)
I never said I didn't accept that Muhammad is God's messenger. Of course you would have to believe he was, to believe the Quran. But he was still a human being, like all messengers, and the majority of muslims put way too much importance on him as a person, far above every other prophet, which is unnecessary. It's the message that matters, not the messenger. That said, when we are living in a time among one of God's messengers it is essential that we do believe that he is in fact God's messenger at the time of his message. Most prophets/messengers were persecuted during the times that they revealed the message, but years later some believed - even idolized them (this is where satan comes in). But when it is clear that Muhammed was a prophet, as he was the deliverer of the Quran, the verses which say that we must believe in the messenger are not only referring to him but to a messenger of our time (such as the messenger of the covenant- whether you choose to believe that he is or not) and future generations.

There is no difference between those two testimonies as long as they are both sincere. However, hypocrisy is a whole other issue that stands in the way of most every religion and the truth.

As for the last part, that's an interesting comparison. I can see what you're getting at, but you have clearly missed my point: the Islam practised by the majority of the peopple in this world today is a corrupt religion. "That's how people know you're a Muslim" is an ignorant statement and generalization of religion as a whole. If you call yourself a muslim then you should know that we are all God's servents, no matter what our religious background, and to Him we will all be returned. God has given everyone in this world a chance to redeem ourselves, and we all have the chance to choose the right or wrong paths - a Muslim, or submitter, should be distinguished by their attributes - and we have no right to differentiate between the prophets, are you saying that Muhammed was the best prophet? This is belittling towards the previous messengers who all delivered the same message; every messenger and prophet whom God chose in the past until today has delivered the same message, not just for any particular religion (p.s- the only true religion IS monotheism- regardless of what label comes after it) but for the WORLD; do you think that only those who are born "muslim" will be saved? It is people like you who give Islam a bad name; and I would rather be called a submitter- the literal meaning of Islam.
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From: node
2005-08-24 11:37 am (UTC)
I never said I didn't accept that Muhammad is God's messenger.

And I never made any claim about you accepting him as a messenger or not. I just thought I'd make that clear.

As for the last part, that's an interesting comparison. I can see what you're getting at, but you have clearly missed my point: the Islam practised by the majority of the peopple in this world today is a corrupt religion.

Whether or not most Muslims follow a corrupt version of Islam, my question is still unanswered. If you were to talking with a Karaite or any other monotheist, how would you convince him or her that Islam is the right path and God's (final) revelation without stating that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah? How would you do this, even if you knew that the monotheist didn't believe in your concept of Allah? Maybe his or her concept of God is a rock, or a tree.

How can you state that Muhammad is a messenger of God without testifying ("shahada") to that fact?

and we have no right to differentiate between the prophets, are you saying that Muhammed was the best prophet?

(I don't think I said he was better.) The main differences between Muhammad and the other prophets are that Muhammad was given God's last revelation, and is the last prophet and messenger. Muhammad himself chides Muslims from considering him favorably to other prophets in at least one hadith I've read.

do you think that only those who are born "muslim" will be saved?

That's a bad choice of words because the Muslim belief is that all are born Muslim, and their parents/society turn them away. But to answer your question, all I know is that the only unforgivable sin is to associate partners with Allah. One who follows God's revelations and does not become a Muslim after hearing of Islam and reading the Qur'an is at best in a grey area for rejecting Islam.

It is people like you who give Islam a bad name;

Oh, lay off on the personal attacks.

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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-08-24 06:21 pm (UTC)
I apologize for making any personal attacks, I realized it was uncalled for shortly after I posted it..I know that you're trying to have a rational discussion and so I will try my best to stay level-headed from now on.
The others I was speaking with earlier in this thread were not as willing to discuss open-mindedly so I suppose I thought you might have been the same at first.
I will now try and answer your questions to my best ability.

"Whether or not most Muslims follow a corrupt version of Islam, my question is still unanswered. If you were to talking with a Karaite or any other monotheist, how would you convince him or her that Islam is the right path and God's (final) revelation without stating that Muhammad is a messenger of Allah? How would you do this, even if you knew that the monotheist didn't believe in your concept of Allah? Maybe his or her concept of God is a rock, or a tree."

First of all, I do not say that "Allah" is a different God from any other religion, it is the same god, "God"- people who do not know about Islam actually believe that "Allah" is the name of some kind of figure that muslims worship when in fact it is just the Arabic word for "God." I would clear this misconception as there is no need to only say "Allah", unless you only speak Arabic. If they worship other than the Almighty, like a rock for example as you stated, then I would simply tell them to read the Quran and then if God wills, He will guide them to the truth. Everything is predetermined, if they are meant to believe, then God is the best teacher and He will guide them to the right path, I can only do so much as to spread the message- the rest is up to them and God. Believing in God and Quran as the final testament is the first thing one must do- believing in Muhammed as a prophet comes easily after this. It isn't too difficult for those who are sincere.

"That's a bad choice of words because the Muslim belief is that all are born Muslim, and their parents/society turn them away. But to answer your question, all I know is that the only unforgivable sin is to associate partners with Allah. One who follows God's revelations and does not become a Muslim after hearing of Islam and reading the Qur'an is at best in a grey area for rejecting Islam."

God says in the Quran that we are all born with an instinct of God. It is then up to every individual to seek Him, and after seeing His signs and facing many tests we all have the chance to make the right choices- not everyone has the opportunity to read Quran- however, God knows the innermost thoughts and God knows what we do not know about everyone- therefore he may forgive many, such as those who die before the age of decision (40)- who never even heard of the Quran. There are submitters in every religion, those who distinguish themselves by denouncing idols and choosing God alone, but when one is introduced to submission, and God knows this is a select few, they then have the opportunity of a lifetime- and that is to strive in the ways God mentions in the Quran, for righteousness, and to develop our souls, so that we may make it to heaven Insh'allah.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 09:00 am (UTC)
I apologize if I may have sounded harsh before, I may have been in a sour mood that day. I did mean what I said, I do however apologize for the tone that it seemed I was using.



"And let me repeat again...QURAN CANNOT BE FOLLOWED ALONE..."



May God have mercy on your soul, you should ask for forgiveness if you wish to take heed.


"Is your definition of idolatry worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? If so...then where in my statements show that i'm worshipping Muhammad(PBUH)? Do i ask him for forgivenes or do I bow my head in prostration toward his grave? I don't think so......Do you have a general idea that muslims worship Muhammad(PBUH)?"

First of all, what is PBUH? Also, I do not judge you by your statements, but is it not a fact that you do mention his name in your shahada, which is part of your contact prayers, which should be devoted to God alone? Also, am I wrong in thinking that the majority of muslims think that Mohammed will intervene on their behalf on the day of judgement? I apologize if you are not among the following who do, but I do know for a fact that there are many who fit this description, that claim to be muslim. I do come from muslim ancestry and I have general knowledge of these backwards traditions, but it is wrong to blindly follow your ancestors without fully seeking the truth.

Also, I understand that Mohammed faced hardship when conveying the message, as did every single one of God's prophets, are you going to put him before all of the rest? Many people went to see the "Passion of the Christ" and decided that because of what this movie conveyed, they should worship Jesus even more because he supposedly died for our sins; of course he too suffered hardship as a prophet but that was part of his test; as it was for every single messenger before and after him, does this mean we should think about him more than God?
As I mentioned before, it is only up to God to distinguish among his messengers, WE only have to follow the continuing message: worship God alone, follow the scripture. The Quran is the scripture of our generation and all generations to come, how could you say that it was for a specific time and place when so much of it applies to everything that is happening around you today, and much that is yet to come? Do you not take heed from the repeated examples? Unless you are guilty, you should open your eyes and see that this is a timeless book- fully detailed- and will be until the end of the world (2280).
Do you have any idea what the initials before many of the sura's mean?
The Quran is a mathematically structured book- if you would study the miracle of 19- you might understand what a great mercy and beacon it truly is for the righteous, and for the world, if you would take heed.

I would also like to note that the Hadith is mentioned in Quran by name, in the following verse:

In the name of God,
Most Gracious, Most Merciful:

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution."

(31:6)

What does this verse mean to you, if it is not already clear that Hadith is baseless, and that many people are capable of being diverted from the right path, no matter what kind of 'credentials' the swayer may have? You tell me what this verse means to you.

If anything, Hadith is an interesting source of history, but definately not a reliable source of religions teachings.




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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-12 12:48 pm (UTC)
you totally missed my point.....you bring other ideas in to bring into the mix.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 08:43 pm (UTC)
i am just proving that your point is biased and hypocritical. i simply brought other examples into 'the mix' as an example of your false ideology. to simply ignore this would be narrow minded.
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From: node
2005-08-23 02:22 am (UTC)
First of all, what is PBUH?

It means "peace be upon him", and is a phrase said by Muslims after mentioning the name of prophets.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that the majority of muslims think that Mohammed will intervene on their behalf on the day of judgement?

Certain hadith say that Muhammad will intercede on the behalf of Muslims, but not all Muslims.

Also, I understand that Mohammed faced hardship when conveying the message, as did every single one of God's prophets, are you going to put him before all of the rest?

I consider him the last messenger, and a person whose actions I'm encouraged to imitate to practice Islam as he did. Hardship doesn't factor in there anywhere.

You tell me what this verse means to you.

It means something other than what you think it means, likely because you didn't read the verse in Arabic. You should've emphasized baseless Hadith, not the word “hadith” alone. You are most likely confusing the word “hadith” in the verse with the recordings of Muhammad's sayings and actions; it means a lot more than that. It's a noun. Read the verse in Arabic.

It can't refer to the recordings of Muhammad's actions and sayings because they did not exist when this verse was revealed.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
From: node
2005-08-23 01:08 am (UTC)
What you have just said is contridactory to what it says in the Quran, if you decide to follow anything other than Quran, you are following satan.

The Qur'an — the word of Allah — tells us to follow and obey Allah and His messenger in several places (3:32 should be sufficient). How can you ask me to disobey Allah?

For example, I pray as the prophet did, as much as possible. I know how to pray because I know how the prophet prayed — it's described in hadith. How do you pray? Where do the words and phrases you use in your prayer come from, if not the hadith?

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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-08-24 09:32 am (UTC)
God also asks you to use your hearing, eyesight and your brain- many verses have been misinterpreted to suit the needs of the hypocrites, but all the knowledge you need is in the Quran, if you wish to learn. Hadith and Sunna are innovations written by people who are not even mentioned in Quran nor are they scriptures that are declared by God- you are following other than God's word and that is really risky business.

The contact prayers were already established through Abraham. They have never changed, but today's muslims have added extra units of rak'ats and have added mention Muhammed, but since Abraham established the prayers, we should also be following him, and I don't think he would have mentioned Muhammed- do you? Do you think Muhammed mentioned Abraham , or better yet, himself? Ha.
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From: node
2005-08-24 01:25 pm (UTC)
God also asks you to use your hearing, eyesight and your brain

I have access to Classic Arabic dictionaries, and I have access to multiple scholarly works on the Quran. Many of these texts on the Quran explain their reasoning methods. So, I have the "use of hearing, eyesight and brain" bit covered.

- many verses have been misinterpreted to suit the needs of the hypocrites, but all the knowledge you need is in the Quran, if you wish to learn.

That's all good and true, but how does it apply to 3:32? How do you interpret that verse and other verses like it? It appears to be a clear commandment to me.

Hadith and Sunna are innovations written by people who are not even mentioned in Quran nor are they scriptures that are declared by God- you are following other than God's word and that is really risky business.

"Sunnah" is what the prophet actually did; as such, it cannot be an innovation. "Hadith" are the recordings of the Sunnah. If God tells us to obey Allah and His messenger, how can we obey the latter if we don't have deny ourselves access to the Sunnah?

Have you studied anything about how the hadith were recorded? Are you aware of the methodology used by the collectors, and how they differentiated between "strong" hadith and "weak" or possibly fabricated hadith?

The contact prayers were already established through Abraham.

I don't believe that Abraham's prayers aren't described in the Qur'an. Can you point to any collection of verses, anything that tells me what Abraham said during different stages of his prayer? Whether or not Muhammad prayed as Abraham did, I don't think we know how Abraham prayed from the Qur'an alone.

They have never changed, but today's muslims have added extra units of rak'ats and have added mention Muhammed, but since Abraham established the prayers, we should also be following him, and I don't think he would have mentioned Muhammed- do you?

When did this change occur? Was it right after the prophet died? Ten years later? A millennium after his death? When, exactly, did "today's" Muslims change prayer, and how did they manage to do it worldwide in a way to make Muslims in the even most remote regions of the world pray as they do?

We are told that the Qur'an, as a revelation, supersedes the Torah and Injeel. We're told that the followers of Judaism and Christianity changed or twisted the meanings of verses to suit their needs. How do we know that Abraham's method of prayer, as practiced by whoever else prayed that way at the time of Muhammad, hadn't also been altered, as the Torah and Injeel were? If Muhammad came after Abraham with a revelation from God, shouldn't we pray as Muhammad did?

Do you think Muhammed mentioned Abraham , or better yet, himself?

Yes, I do. The actual words used in the prayer are described by the prophet in several hadith, where he teaches others how to pray. I have yet to find any evidence to the contrary.

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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-08-24 06:59 pm (UTC)
well it was nice chatting with you but i know where this conversation is headed and as long as you bring hadiths into this, which i clearly reject, then i'm afraid we won't be agreeing on much unless it is directly in the quran. if you really do have questions as far as my belief goes then you can find all the answers at submission.org. i do believe rashad khalifa to have been the messenger of the covenant as much as i believe that muhammed was the last prophet. i also believe that where God says in the Quran that we must believe in His messengers it was both referring to Muhammed and Dr. Khalifa whose name is mentionend in the Quran and follows the mathematical code. i'm not going to beat around the bush, i believe his words to be true, as it all conforms with the Quran and he speaks the truth. i respect whatever it is that you practice in your own terms, while i do not agree with hadiths nor will i ever- i will continue on my path and spread the truth. we will only see who was better guided on the day of resurrection. salaam.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 09:00 am (UTC)
And finally, I am going to turn to any random page in Hadith, which I do happen to own a copy of, to note the differences between a book that is pure and void of any nonsense, and one that is based of falsehood and conjecture.

Oh, an excellent example:

CHAPTER. A menstruating woman should not fast. (!?!??!!?!!)

301. Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: Allahs Apostle came out to offer the prayer of Id-al-Asha or Al-Fitr, and passed by the women (in the mosque) and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen you forming the majority of the dwellers of Hell." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "you curse too much and are ungrateful to your husband. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allahs Apostle! What is deficient in our inteligence and religion?" He said, Is not the witness of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your religion."
Not only is that a ridiculously backwards, but it also sounds to me like this book MOCKS the prophet rather than support him, I do not believe that one of God's prophets would preach this kind of blasphemous falsehood. This is so wrong in so many ways I don't even know WHERE to begin.
First of all, God is very very clear and strict about the equality of men and women submitters; there is a whole surah in favour of the rights of women for goodness sake! What a joke that is to say that women cannot even FAST while they are menstruating? and cannot do their contact prayers?? WHERE in the Quran does it say ANY of this? I would think this is a pretty big commandment to just overlook, especially in surah 4- Al-Nesa (Women) which is very detailed, and very straightforward in favour of women's rights and equality.
I rest my case.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-12 12:58 pm (UTC)
i'm glad your resting your case b/c its going to confuse the uneducated confused muslims out there. This hadith your brought forth is contextualized for a specific purpose and since an ordinary laymen like you doesn't understand it....you will take it out of context and use it for your own purpose. You totally missed my point about hadiths preservation in the beginning and you bring this one particular hadith to further your agenda about falsified hadiths.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 08:55 pm (UTC)
i did not miss your point, you had no point to begin with. YOU are the one who is missing the point.

"The truth has come; while falsehood can neither initiate anything, nor repeat it."
"If I go astray, I go astray because of my oown shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near."
(34:50-51)

This hadith your brought forth is contextualized for a specific purpose and since an ordinary laymen like you doesn't understand it....

an ordinary laymen like me you say, and i took THAT, out of context?? this actually made me laugh out loud. it's impossible to interpret that any other way, it really amazes me that you can actually justify something like this, in some sick way. well i have served my purpose and it is clear to me that you have your mind set in the wrong direction, so i'll quit now before you dig yourself a deeper hole. i mean, peace be upon you. have a nice life.
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From: node
2005-08-23 02:38 am (UTC)
A menstruating woman should not fast. (!?!??!!?!!)

Menstruation is considered impure, and unclean: 3:222.

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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-08-24 09:36 am (UTC)
That is referring to sexual relations during menstruation, it says nothing about fasting, which is a rite that every muslim has. Whoever wrote Hadiths was clearly very mysogynistic and is responsible for the injustice towards women in Islamic countries, God is just- and these practices contradict what is in the Quran.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-12 12:35 pm (UTC)
I don't need to rebuttal anymore b/c its just going into circles, i already gave my stance on the sunnah and hadith. Your ideas are going to confuse people rather than help them submit to God and you are not sincere in what you say. Here is where your sect of Islam originated from if you don't know already. Your so called originator/messanger was Rasad Khalifa...read more below.

Check middle area of link or just read below.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/anti_muslim_main.htm

The Int'l Community of Submitters
The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah.
Much of Rashad Khalifa's misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19.

He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ...is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears." By rejecting a single verse of the Qur'an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,

... Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom ... (2:85)

It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur'an:

They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)

The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Mohammed (saws)- not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

* Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
* Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
* Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
* Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam (saws) warned Muslims of falling into this trap,

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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 09:32 pm (UTC)
Yes, I do believe that Rashad Khalifa was a messenger, not a prophet, but the messenger of the covenant who was prophesised in the previous scriptures as well as the Quran.
His proof of messengership was indeed, revealing the miracle of 19.
As for his knowledge regarding the end of the world:

"God is the Knower of the future;
He does not permit anyone to unveil such knowledge.
Only through the messengers that He chooses
does He reveal future and past events.
"

It was among Dr. Khalifa's duties as the messenger of the covenant to reveal this information at the appropriate time.
Verse 15 of surah 20 also informs us that the end of the world will be revealed by God before the end of the world, and Surah 15, Verse 87, gives the time for that event:
"We have given you the seven pairs, and the great Quran."
15:87

The seven pairs are the 14 Quranic initals. The total gematrical value of these profound pillas of the Qurans miracle pinpoints the year of the end of the world. It is noteworthy that Verse 85 of Sura 15 states: "The end of the world will surely come to pass." The next verse, 15:86, tells us that God is the Creator of this worlld, and, of course, He knows when it will end. The following verse, 15:87, tells us when the world will end.
The gematrical values of "The Seven Pairs" of Quranic Initials total 1709.
According to 15:87, the world will survive for 1709 lunar years from the time this prophecy is stated in the Quran. This means that the world will end in the year 1710 AH. This number is a multiple of 19; 1710=19x90.

This is part of the knowledge that God inspired Rashad Khalifa with in regards to the end of the world, in his words. I would continue on but somehow I think you may still choose to disregard it and throw back some other hackneyed reply that will once again contradict itself and get you nowhere. Remember this; it is worse in God's eyes to reject one of His messengers without having knowledge than to accept the message when there is clearly nothing blasphemous therein. Satan will misguide you into digging for something against this, and he may succeed, if you are a weak soul.
However, the truth will always win over falsehood, and God willing we will see who was on the right path.

And lastly, in regards to the religious practices, you claim that we submitters have been practising them wrong, but it is actually the other way around.

* Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
muhammed's name is praised in the azan beside God
Alas, the following verse rings true:
"When God ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do disbelieve in the hereafter shrink with aversion, but when others are mentioned with Him, they become satisfied."

* Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
i don't even know where you get that we are not giving proper zakat, who are you to say this?
* Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
also, tell me how fasting is any different, and while you are at it i again challenge you to justify the hadith claiming that women cannot fast during menstruation.
* Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam
the days of pilgrimage are clearly stated in the quran, and so we read and obey exactly what is in there-surely you are misguided if you follow otherwise.
so..you still have not proven anything to me, and it seems the only unintelligent muslim that is confused would be you, my friend.
oh, wait, what's this? i see you haven't mentioned the shahadah in this list...could it be because it is in fact correct, and in the name of God alone, whereas, traditional muslims mention mohammeds name beside Him? perhaps we are wrong with this also... hmmm i think NOT.

i challenge you, if you call yourself a true muslim, to say the shahada: "Ash-hadu Allaa Elaaha Ellaa Allah" by itself, without mentioning the name of Muhammed. Surely you should have no problem doing so, if you are truthful.

Peace out.
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[User Picture]From: webb21
2005-09-02 07:04 am (UTC)
As one who' dhonestly like to know how you do some of these th ings without the sunnah, I'd like to ask:
•Zakat•
Is the amount for zakat mentioned in the Qur'an?

•Sawm•
While the Qur'an does mentioned to fast, how do you know -how- to fast? For instance, in medical fasting you can drink water, in traditional muslim fasting you cannot. Can a submitter drink water during th efast? When does the fast begin and when does it end?

•Hajj•
OK, so you know when to do hajj, but how do you do it? According to the sunnah there are many details involved. Do you just go there, say hi to the ka'aba then go home?

These aren't meant to be accusatorial, I'm just curious how you do these things without the sunnah.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-12 10:07 pm (UTC)
If you wish to continue any sort of intelligable argument with me, I only ask that you actually read the QURAN, that's right QURAN ALONE, and then perhaps we can have an actual discussion. Until then, I bid you adieu.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-14 02:27 am (UTC)
intelligable arguements? You're asking me to read the Quran?...look at yourself...You bring everything out of context. you are wasting your time argueing this issue with every muslim you meet online or in real life. Reflect and look at your life. Think about what you are doing. You are in a sect that was established after several years. Understand your situation otherwise you're going to regret it someday.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-03-14 04:25 pm (UTC)
nope, i have no doubts whatsoever regarding my beliefs; you might want to take your own advice though, maybe you should lose the ego and reflect upon your own life..you're right about one thing though and i am going to stop wasting my time on YOU. i won't stop spreading the message of truth though, because there are some who may benefit from it. you on the other hand need to worry about your own soul, and let others decide for themselves.
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From: ihsan4life
2005-03-15 02:07 am (UTC)
ego? Thats odd....i wasn't the one acting rude and harsh the whole time. Then again, i'm glad your going to stop wasting your time on me because you know i won't break. Every right minded muslim like me knows that you are with a devient sect. I was only trying to help, but you just keep on dissing me instead...Peace out.

Don't waste your time replyin back

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[User Picture]From: webb21
2005-09-01 04:02 am (UTC)
Ha, hmm, I almost got involved with the submitters sect myself in my early pre-conversion days.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-09-01 11:35 pm (UTC)
well actually the point is that it isn't a sect, but anyway, may i ask what made you change your mind?
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[User Picture]From: webb21
2005-09-02 06:56 am (UTC)

only .0002% of the Ummah is right?

I stay away from fringe groups and groups which have too much controversy/not enough credibility to them. I'm a very standard traditional orthodox muslim, of the maliki madhhab and do not accept any prophets or messengers after Muhammad ibn Abdullah (peace and blessings be upon him) or before the second coming of Jesus (upon him be peace). I also do not consider Mirza Ghulam to be Jesus (AS) (not that he has anything to do with the Submitters). I'm also not fond of groups which tamper with the Qur'an to suit their fancy.

To me the submitters 'movement' just comes off as some kook movement and I see little credibility in it.

Just curious, are you a submitter that accepts the prophet-hood/messengership of Dr. Khalifa, or one that does not?
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From: madamerahil
2005-11-18 07:32 am (UTC)
I just read this whole post. Crazy...
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-11-24 01:59 pm (UTC)
ma'shallah, i am glad you took the time to read the whole thing- i hope that perhaps you may have taken the time to read some of the articles on submission.org as well, to better understand my side of the argument. if you are also among those here who think it is illogical that so many people who call themselves muslims would actually be considered hypocrites or idol worshippers- or are simply not following the quran as it should be- then you must remember that God does say in the quran that the majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship, and that Satan declared that he would posess all of Adam's descendents, except a few..even in the Muslim world God must put us all through the test to distinguish the right way from the wrong.. of course Islam has been corrupted over the years just as every other monotheist religion has, however, God says that the only religion accepted by Him is submission- to Him alone, if we all would agree upon this and follow the Quran, we would be on the right path, inshallah.
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From: madamerahil
2005-11-24 05:38 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry, but everything you are saying is an interpretation of what you feel these verses mean. I have read the articles on submission.org, but I still disagree with their logic. I don't agree with following ANY movement and there are even things which I may not agree with on this website, but I like the website www.tolueislam.com a lot better, because they reject any hadith which is weak or contradicts the Qur'an, but then again they are not a movement. To claim that all hadith are to be ignored is not only arrogant, but it also sounds really ignorant on your part, IMO.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-11-24 08:58 pm (UTC)
"The aim and objective of the Tolu-e-Islam Movement" that's the first sentence i read on that website.. whereas @ submission.org it doesn't say anything about being a movement. also, for them to admit that there are 'weak' hadiths and verses which contradict the Quran is exactly what makes them hypocrites- to still follow something that is clearly fallible, as if it were as important as the Holy Scripture itself, when the Quran is infallible and wherein God says that we should not follow anything beside it- is more ignorant in my opinion..you either ignore the entire thing, or you follow it beside the Quran- God has given us many examples, and there is only one right path..why do people insist on making it so difficult?

[54:17] "We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?"
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From: madamerahil
2005-11-25 12:21 pm (UTC)
Did you read any of the articles or just dismiss everything they said? Submission.org doesn't have to say it's a movement in order for it to be wrong. I think you definetely need a reality check. Not all ahadith are incorrect. It has a lot to do with how they were collected and which time period. We could argue all day on this, but unlike you who expects everyone to practice the same 'brand' of Islam, I do believe that in the end it's up to Allah(swt) to choose what is correct/incorrect. I definetely think you have not studied the history of Islam very much or you wouldn't act so arrogant towards other Muslims. Nice way of manipulating the Qur'an to fit your ideas.
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2005-11-25 12:56 pm (UTC)
I don't expect that everyone should be following Islam the same way, but God says in the Quran that we should not be divided; I am simply trying to spread the message of strict monotheism- and I as well leave it completely up to God to point out the wrong way from the right. However, as a submitter, I feel it is my duty to spread the message- you can continue to do whatever you feel is right, though it is definitely up to God to decide which is on the right path. I and those among me reject the hadiths, do not set up any idols beside God, and follow the Quran in it's pure form- if this seems wrong in any way to you then I leave you to continue in whatever it is you think is right and let God be the judge among us. I do not agree with a lot of the practices and ideologies that have been attached to today's Islam to the extent that I would rather be called a monotheist submitter, than to be called what is considered today to be "muslim." I do not need to do an in depth study of the history of Islam, God and the Quran are my guide and I feel that these are all that is neccessary- as well as my faith and belief in God and the hereafter, which is very strong; it is not hard to see the differences between what is right and what is wrong if you sincerely follow God's words..I have not manipulated anything, to me the scripture is very clear, I won't accuse you of doing anything wrong, but I just urge you to use your own judgement and choose the best path. I can tell however that you are stuck in your ways, and I too will not waver with my beliefs, so we can only pray for ourselves..I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, but I will stand up for what is right.
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[User Picture]From: webb21
2005-09-02 06:58 am (UTC)

Re: only .0002% of the Ummah is right?

Whoops, just answered my own question by reading another post you made. :-)
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From: (Anonymous)
2006-02-15 02:24 am (UTC)

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
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From: (Anonymous)
2012-03-26 10:48 pm (UTC)
Well done! I learned some interesting things for me)
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[User Picture]From: _hiddensecret
2012-06-05 11:55 pm (UTC)

Peace

Wow, 7 years later and I have just returned to this thread. I was definitely a passionate 18 year old haha but am happy to say I still follow strict Monotheism as it is laid out in the final testament (Quran). I am glad you were able to gain some new information from this, if you would like to check out some updated sites www.submission.ws as well as masjidtucson.org are both great places to start. Please feel free to e-mail me as well if you wish to discuss anything in particular :) nightingale19@gmail.com

God bless you,
S
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